LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets)
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@C0-Eve said in LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets):
Are you expecting free work or something? Sorry, for not selling 30 kitbashed Avatars.
The original Avatar is good, it's being sold, then we work on an attachment. Of course we expect to get paid for the newly made thing.
If we sell 3000 attachment for Runa, then of course the full thing will be expensive af but it also means we made 3000 new things LOL.What kind of logic is this supposed to be? Robo GF Add-On was also 2 Sets of booba, a pussy-plate, a dick and an interior animated pump.
I also put a lot of value into making sure that the released Avatars don't drop your friends FPS by 30 for just existing. Okay, optimization is not a cool funny feature to use, but it's pretty damn important and makes the creation process really hard and lengthy sometimes.Cyant01 for example is 64k Poly, sorry but I'm really proud of that fact. Making completely new legs will be the work of 30-40% of making an Avatar from scratch again, how would you price that for example?
You've really dropped the ball with that response.
No, I'm not asking you to release free addons. As a matter of fact, I've purchased several of your avatars (including Runa) and accessories along with several accessories made by others.
HOWEVER...there is a limit on how much I'm willing to spend for a single avatar/accessory, Runa and especially the accessories available to her have been hitting those limits more often than most other base models and their accessories. As a result, customizing Runa gets more expensive than most avatars and their respective accessories that I tend to buy from...BOOTH.
Not the Gumroad kitbash trash that you seem to be referring to.
And I've decided to be more supportive and bought a lot of avatars this year (nearly 40 throughout 2023, last I checked), along with accessories and additional outfits for some of them.
I was thinking about actually buying Cyant this month, but this...
Are you expecting free work or something? Sorry, for not selling 30 kitbashed Avatars.
I may have to reconsider after that.
But if you want a suggestion for the price of those legs, I'd say no more than half of Cyant's base price.
Honestly, you and Tori could've sold Runa with the robogf upgrade built-in as an entirely separate NSFW version for a bit more than the default Runa, let the customer decide on which version to buy, and that would've been more acceptable (as long as it's not nearly double or triple the price of the SFW version). Several creators on Booth have already been doing that for ages, and it works for them.
Bonus points if you'd have made the SFW B0-0BA upgrade a part of the default Runa in the beginning and add $10 to the base price to compensate.
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@C0-Eve said in LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets):
Are you expecting free work or something? Sorry, for not selling 30 kitbashed Avatars.
The original Avatar is good, it's being sold, then we work on an attachment. Of course we expect to get paid for the newly made thing.You couldn't have missed the point harder if you tried, nobody is asking you to work for free, read the room. What people (like myself) are saying is that you are on the ENTERTAINMENT business, you don't sell models to enterprise, you sell models to people, for fun, as an avatar that they will probably only use with a single platform. You asking 60 dollars for a singular 3D model, as from scratch as it may be, it's absolutely ridiculous. With the quality of the avatar itself you would get double, triple the amount of people by simply being more affordable for the use case of the model, add a business license if you wanna suck some extra money off people with more use for the model than going to The Great Pug.
If we sell 3000 attachment for Runa, then of course the full thing will be expensive af but it also means we made 3000 new things LOL.
What kind of logic is this supposed to be? Robo GF Add-On was also 2 Sets of booba, a pussy-plate, a dick and an interior animated pump.
Let's make a quick price breakdown here, shall we? Runa costs 50$, with no other accessories, hairs, outfits, or almost any toggles. Then say you wanna have at least some breast sizes, an outfit and some hairs. Then that's another 30$, way more expensive than customizing any original model from booth, not even an e-girl from gumroad.
But the worst offender by far is the Robot gf upgrade, cause you NEED the Endoskeleton to get the full value of the already expensive 45$, that's a 60$ DLC. The DLC for the model is MORE EXPENSIVE than the model itself. Please read this carefully and tell me with a straight face that those pieces of customization deserve a higher price tag than the whole model on its own. Let me tell you looking at literally any good and popular booth model: they're not worth that much. Not even by a long shot.
I also put a lot of value into making sure that the released Avatars don't drop your friends FPS by 30 for just existing. Okay, optimization is not a cool funny feature to use, but it's pretty damn important and makes the creation process really hard and lengthy sometimes.
Cyant01 for example is 64k Poly, sorry but I'm really proud of that fact. Making completely new legs will be the work of 30-40% of making an Avatar from scratch again, how would you price that for example?
Props to you for actually bothering to optimize the models, but at the end of the day that's your choice as a creator, nobody ever buys avatars based on performance, people don't care they are 99% very poor, and the people who care will optimize it on their own accord and time. You don't get to decide something like that in the behalf of people who might not even care and then say they have to pay extra because of it.
As for your question, considering you already charge 60 bucks for the base avatar, 15 bucks. Price stuff according to the value of the whole, not on its own.
Also I will say that I bought Cherrycubus the moment she came out, 45 bucks for an avatar with a bunch of outfits, unique interactions and toggles? Super good value and I was fine supporting that. But this whole business with the robot avatars? Terrible value doesn't even begin to describe if you want even the most basic customization.
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You guys need to understand that you don't need to buy my add-ons to customize Runa, a lot of people make their own stuff or just put something together with a random assortment of assets. I also see what people like in my statistics and sales, I see what they're willing to spend and what's popular with people. I also need to take feedback from piracy websites about my prices with a grain of salt (for obvious reasons) because it's almost exclusively a complaint from here and not feedback that's coming from my customers. Another issue I saw from people here is that If I make legs now an sell them for 15$, people will think it's fine. However, if I make 10 legs and sell each for 15$ then those same people will go "What, 150$ worth of addons?" Just makes no sense to me, sorry.
To give 0 value to optimization here and say "it's your choice is a creator" is also nonsense. Yeah no shit that it's my choice but that's not a "you didn't need to do this" thing. I want to release quality stuff, simple as that. A lot of my community members DO care for it, they're very hands-on with customizing my Avis and the optimization is a big selling point for them.
And what's this about "you don't get to decide on behalf of people" nonsense, as if I mass hypnotize people and force them to buy my products. Clearly when someone buys the products based on what I have listed and shown, it absolutely IS worth it the price to them. You get what you see, I always show the product from a lot of angles AND create a showcase video so people can see it in motion and use. My descriptions will always tell you what you're buying, all requirements are also ALWAYS listed. I will never make a product that "hides" flaws or requirements.
Also know that I am not here to pick fights, the piracy side of this is just really interesting to me because ultimately this is some form of advertisement for me and most importantly, it's also a good spot to collect feedback. You don't need to be my customer for me to care about your opinion, if you feel like 60$ is too much for example then that's already valuable feedback for me to collect. In hindsight maybe I should have made her 50$ again and tried to get a higher sales number instead of more from each sale. I think what I will do is release her on Boosty later down the line and make her like 40$ there (cause we get a better cut from Boosty).
But that's why she will receive a few free updates for now, because I am a little unhappy with the lack of Gun for example. Okay it looks cool in the holster but it just feels "wrong" that you can't use it right now. It's just more fun if you can pull and fire it. If you guys got suggestions for the laser turret, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't really want to make it fire and idk if it tracking your head would rotation/movement would just make it clip with yourself ...
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@C0-Eve said in LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets):
You guys need to understand that you don't need to buy my add-ons to customize Runa, a lot of people make their own stuff or just put something together with a random assortment of assets.
But not everyone is skilled at Blender or wants to go through the hassle or modifying incompatible assets to get them to fit.
Another issue I saw from people here is that If I make legs now an sell them for 15$, people will think it's fine. However, if I make 10 legs and sell each for 15$ then those same people will go "What, 150$ worth of addons?" Just makes no sense to me, sorry.
Take a page from the Booth outfit creators' book on this, and sell a full pack bundle of those 10 pairs of legs for a small discount, like $100. Still a bit much, but it makes it a better deal for anyone actually planning to buy all 10 (or at least 7 of them) in the first place.
To give 0 value to optimization here and say "it's your choice is a creator" is also nonsense. Yeah no shit that it's my choice but that's not a "you didn't need to do this" thing. I want to release quality stuff, simple as that. A lot of my community members DO care for it, they're very hands-on with customizing my Avis and the optimization is a big selling point for them.
I've been playing vrchat for almost half a decade now, and the only people I've really seen to care about optimization in vrchat are those in the club scene, mainly the hypocritical western club event organizers and their "staff". The majority of the japanese club scene don't give a damn about your avatar's performance rank or optimization, as long as you don't be a nuisance by using oversized avatars/screen-hijacking shaders/loud audio/excessive particles/etc.
Also, I'm not saying that you wasted time optimizing your products, but in the end if someone decided to buy an avatar that an author spent time to get to medium performance rank and then decide to add 40-something outfits with various toggles and shaders to create some lag-inducing abomination (like one of those chinese public Maya avatars), then the end user is at fault for the poor optimization, not the author selling the base model.
So I wouldn't really worry about it if I were you, unless you really want to make your avatars more acceptable for the organized western events.You don't need to be my customer for me to care about your opinion, if you feel like 60$ is too much for example then that's already valuable feedback for me to collect. In hindsight maybe I should have made her 50$ again and tried to get a higher sales number instead of more from each sale. I think what I will do is release her on Boosty later down the line and make her like 40$ there (cause we get a better cut from Boosty).
Runa is definitely one of the more popular models (if not the most) on Booth at the moment that isn't made by an asian author, but her price and lack of aftermarket support from asian creators may have prevented her from reaching the front page on the 3D Characters section when sorted by popularity (she is on page 3 last I checked)
Take a look at the most popular Booth models on the first page, and you'll see that over half of them are in that range of 5000-5500 yen (or anywhere between 35 to 40 dollars). Only around 15 of the 60 avatars on the first page dare to go higher than that.
It also might be worth taking note that some of those avatars that have reached front page have been on Booth for a much shorter time than Runa (Manuka has only been out for a little over 3 months and she's on the top fucking row, Lime has been out for a little over 5 months, Deltaflare has been out for almost 5 months, Lasyusha has been out for a little over 6 months, and Fiona has been out for over 9 months).For Cyant (and maybe Runa), would you consider possibly reaching out to some of those outfit creators, like the ones that specialize in techwear and sci-fi themed outfits, to try convincing them to include her in their lists of supported avatars?
If you guys got suggestions for the laser turret, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't really want to make it fire and idk if it tracking your head would rotation/movement would just make it clip with yourself ...
You know of that "x-ray" flashlight prefab that shows the wireframes of any object that its light touches? Maybe you could do something like that with the turret, since Cyant's theme is supposedly that of a hunter.
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@C0-Eve said in LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets):
You guys need to understand that you don't need to buy my add-ons to customize Runa, a lot of people make their own stuff or just put something together with a random assortment of assets. I also see what people like in my statistics and sales, I see what they're willing to spend and what's popular with people.
Okay, so your audience is "people that do their own work", that's cool and all, I've done some editing to Runa before, but ultimately the amount of people who do from scratch addons for their own Runa is ridiculously low, like, the vast majority of edits I see around are just variations of your own overpriced assets. Sure, some people will be fine simply changing the colour palette and calling it a day, but that gets exhausted quick because again, it's a model for a social game where people want to be unique, not a model used to make an Unity game.
I will also say that using "my customers don't complain" as a point is completely void, no shit your customers are gonna be happy with what they get, they paid for it, they get what they wanted to pay for and for them 60 bucks is a drop in the bucket. That's like saying Call of Duty games are amazing value cause you know, people buy it and the people that pay money are fine with it.
I also need to take feedback from piracy websites about my prices with a grain of salt (for obvious reasons) because it's almost exclusively a complaint from here and not feedback that's coming from my customers.
I'd say feedback from here is more valuable towards making more sales than the feedback of the people that already paid you. Again, why would your customers complain about the price when they already paid you? It makes no sense to me.
Another issue I saw from people here is that If I make legs now an sell them for 15$, people will think it's fine. However, if I make 10 legs and sell each for 15$ then those same people will go "What, 150$ worth of addons?" Just makes no sense to me, sorry.
I think it's a completely different example, cause making 10 of the same item is not the same as making 10 different items for different use cases. You only need one pair of legs to pick from 10, you potentially need multiple different addons to make different parts of her body unique. Choice is good, but you're not choosing Jam jars for Runa, you're choosing all the parts of the sandwich separately.
To give 0 value to optimization here and say "it's your choice is a creator" is also nonsense. Yeah no shit that it's my choice but that's not a "you didn't need to do this" thing. I want to release quality stuff, simple as that. A lot of my community members DO care for it, they're very hands-on with customizing my Avis and the optimization is a big selling point for them.
And what's this about "you don't get to decide on behalf of people" nonsense, as if I mass hypnotize people and force them to buy my products. Clearly when someone buys the products based on what I have listed and shown, it absolutely IS worth it the price to them. You get what you see, I always show the product from a lot of angles AND create a showcase video so people can see it in motion and use. My descriptions will always tell you what you're buying, all requirements are also ALWAYS listed. I will never make a product that "hides" flaws or requirements.
You missed the point of what I said or misunderstood it, my point is that if you choose to put more time and effort into optimizing your avatar, you don't get to decide on behalf of the customer the intrinsic value of how much of the final price is affected by optimization. Vast majority of the people in VRC are using Very Poor avatars, I personally notice 0 difference from one or two avatars being yours because the addons of Runa already make her Very Poor anyway.
I hold 0 value towards being charged as part of the final price for the extra optimization, as do plenty of people (which as you say, are not your customers already). How much do you value optimization? 20$? 30$? If your effort is such a selling point, I personally would prefer just selling different rated versions for a lesser price like some other creators do, if you don't want your hard work to go unpaid. I'd much rather pay 30,35 or even 40 for a Very Poor Cyant than 60 for a Medium one.
Also know that I am not here to pick fights, the piracy side of this is just really interesting to me because ultimately this is some form of advertisement for me and most importantly, it's also a good spot to collect feedback. You don't need to be my customer for me to care about your opinion, if you feel like 60$ is too much for example then that's already valuable feedback for me to collect. In hindsight maybe I should have made her 50$ again and tried to get a higher sales number instead of more from each sale. I think what I will do is release her on Boosty later down the line and make her like 40$ there (cause we get a better cut from Boosty).
Well we can definitely agree on something here, I think 40 bucks would have been a good value for the amount of work, even if still slightly lacking on features on release. I'm not an avatar creator, but I know how simple economics work. You say this is free advertisement for you, but so is people using your avatars in-game. Why settle for more money per sale when you could literally be drowning on it simply by getting more sales? More sales means more people using the avatar, more people that see it, more people that might get interested and buy it for themselves.
It's such a basic cycle that I'm shocked you didn't outright release her for 40$ on Boosty if the store cut is so heavy on the other two places.
But that's why she will receive a few free updates for now, because I am a little unhappy with the lack of Gun for example. Okay it looks cool in the holster but it just feels "wrong" that you can't use it right now. It's just more fun if you can pull and fire it. If you guys got suggestions for the laser turret, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't really want to make it fire and idk if it tracking your head would rotation/movement would just make it clip with yourself ...
I'm glad you're willing to update her for no extra cost. I'm someone that likes paying for value, I don't think kitbashed trash is worth 30 bucks, but I also don't think avatars with very, very light features are worth 60. I really love your work and I'll be happy to support Cyant or some other thing you make if it aligns with the value of some of your other avatars.
At the end of the day there's a heavy misconception about piracy, I'm not here because I don't want to pay, I'm here because I don't find it to be a good deal at present time. Limiting the access to content (through takedowns, DRM and such) will never get me to pay a single cent. But feedback being taken and value being improved will.
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Damn this shit is crazy. Some of yall are not really thinking about it hard enough, seeing all the shit you type. But hey, 60 bucks for avatar they made from the ground up and not some kitbash is mind boggling to me. Why complain? Dont like the price then dont buy? But yeah go ahead bitch about it when the creator is being chill about you sharing the avatar and its assets. Yeah Ive had my fair share of getting stuff off of here but in the end I usually end up buying it IF i like it. If I dont I remove it and dont fuck with it. Enough with that! I dont give two shits what people think or say I just wannted to give my take on this shit show is all. <-- Dont expect a reply.
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tbh love Tori and their avis, ALWAYS . and the fact that people can't respect their sales, and let them earn some money before start sharing it left and right, even after they asked for 2 weeks. is just disgusting. I did not mind paying 60 bucks to support them IN THEIR WORK. and the damn time and effort they put into it, and so what if there's gonna be add-ons, No one is forcing you guys to get them, that's ur choice.
Personally I've never complained about any of Tori's avis, and I never will bc so faar I love them all. and I wanna see them make tons of more shit, SO AT LEAST SUPPORT THEM
Instead of complaing like little kids about a small 60 bucks, if that is not small for you. go get a JOB
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@godamongdogs said in LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets):
Instead of complaing like little kids about a small 60 bucks, if that is not small for you. go get a JOB
Someone seem to have overlooked the part where I mentioned the number of avatars I've purchased throughout the year, including some of Tori's. That would be nearly impossible to do without a job, so how do you think I am able to buy them in the first place?
Most of those avatars I'll probably end up never uploading to vrchat, since I bought them mainly for collection purposes or later use (since stuff tends to get delisted every now and then, sometimes without warning) and supporting the new and smaller creators.SO AT LEAST SUPPORT THEM
Already have, for their previous works. The money that could be used to support them by buying Cyant would be better used to support 2 or 3 smaller creators though. All I want was for them to try to be a little more reasonable with their pricing, considering the other original avatars they're competing with for sales (a number of which I have already bought).
Since you want to try to get high and mighty with us about supporting Tori, how many avatars, outfits, and other assets have you bought this year that aren't gumroad kitbashes? How many creators have you supported? Does it outweight the number of assets you downloaded from here?
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I mean let's just chill a bit because 60$ can be make or break for some people so I really REALLY don't mind if people download it from here. Especially if you're in a country with weak currency, the exchange rate will make it ridiculously overpriced. Of course I won't expect people to give away their entire monthly salary for our Avis, I'd probably rather pirate it myself in that situation.
TL;DR: Product is always as described, buy if you feel it's worth the price tag, otherwise don't worry about it.
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@C0-Eve Don't worry I still intend to buy Cyant eventually, just not right now especially with christmas and new year's around the corner since I got to buy gifts for relatives. Either next month or whenever there's a slow period of new models coming out is when I'll do it.
Do try to arrange some sort of agreement with those outfit creators though, if you can. Gaining aftermarket support from the popular outfit creators of Booth will likely mean more sales for Cyant.
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@godamongdogs said in LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets):
Personally I've never complained about any of Tori's avis, and I never will bc so faar I love them all. and I wanna see them make tons of more shit, SO AT LEAST SUPPORT THEM
Instead of complaing like little kids about a small 60 bucks, if that is not small for you. go get a JOB
Please, use more ad hominems, I love them all, make sure to ask your parents how to use the dictionary though since I doubt you know what that term means. Also do list all the Tori assets you've bought, since you seem very enthusiastic about your moral high ground while asking for an insane amount of models on this forum.
@Clown said in LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets):
Enough with that! I dont give two shits what people think or say I just wannted to give my take on this shit show is all. <-- Dont expect a reply.
For not giving a shit you sure typed a lot, sorry that some of us actually put value to money, but hey the username sure checks out.
But yeah, will support this model or any other you make if I consider it a good value, my two cents is that I would love more stuff on the ballpark of Cherrycubus or even the Pink Runa.
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@Mizuryu said in LF: CYANT by Torinyan (and additional assets):
Please, use more ad hominems, I love them all, make sure to ask your parents how to use the dictionary though since I doubt you know what that term means. Also do list all the Tori assets you've bought, since you seem very enthusiastic about your moral high ground while asking for an insane amount of models on this forum.
Never bragged about being good with arguments, never had and never will. but tho this is a "ripper"/Leaker" forum. It does not excuse us for being human and respect other peoples work. Yes I've BOUGHT plenty of tori's work, and it's not gonna stop me for doing so either. There is a difference on providing and receiving, besides I've only started to use this side not too long ago. most of the time is spend on finding awesome avis to buy.
I got nothing to prove to you what so ever xD - I'm simply saying that we AS HUMAN BEINGS. and as people who "does" seem to enjoy peoples work in a vr "game" / Social platform, can respect when a creator goes "listen could you guys. Just for a little while" comply by it, It a very small thing to do. but seems like ur head can't even phantom that xD.
Oh and I am sorry for not having english as my first lang, or second, or third xD - so yeah with some words I might seems slighty retarded
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I do say sorry for that @Mizuryu - let's get on to you then, since ur profile is only related to this post - so either you are new or two alt account.
does not matter which. - What I implied was simply to accept Tori request to back off for two weeks. so they can atleast earn some money on the sales.
I understand that some people can't afford that. but then wait before anything els. it's a simple request for respect. Which I can clearly see ur missing kid.and if your wondering why I'm asking for these avis. it more for a personal project that I wanna work on, so trying to find something I can buy and then use. and so faar I've found A few that I've bought already, while deleting the rest.
@Dexizuki
just fyi. just read my msg you answer on,
and seems like. I sounded rougher then I should. don' take it in any ill way. I get it.
tho it does piss me off when tori asks nicely that a lot of people seem to piss on it.
it was more directed towards them.@C0-Eve
Love the work. and gonna keep supporting you guys. waiting for the day you make a furry xD - Just to see what it would look like -
@godamongdogs Ah, sorry if that was the case.
